for you us citizens (and those whose nations have a similar patriotic oath), how do you feel about your children saying the pledge in school if it's customary?.
my daughter is in 3rd grade and part of her school's morning routine includes the pledge.
when we stopped attending meetings a year ago, my wife and i explained to her that we don't agree with the jw "idolatry" classification so, naturally, she started joining her class in the pledge.. fast forward to the present: my wife and i are both non-theists who want to raise ethical, caring, tolerant children, but also children who aren't afraid to stand apart, especially when that stand isn't popular.
I'm with you Six, I just don't see how repeating mindless chants teaches kids how to think.
Obviously the government thinks it teaches something.
As for good Germans, not being connected in any way to the mind-controlled youth movements - My studies in history, including visits to mutliple concentration camps, tell me otherwise.
for you us citizens (and those whose nations have a similar patriotic oath), how do you feel about your children saying the pledge in school if it's customary?.
my daughter is in 3rd grade and part of her school's morning routine includes the pledge.
when we stopped attending meetings a year ago, my wife and i explained to her that we don't agree with the jw "idolatry" classification so, naturally, she started joining her class in the pledge.. fast forward to the present: my wife and i are both non-theists who want to raise ethical, caring, tolerant children, but also children who aren't afraid to stand apart, especially when that stand isn't popular.
Regarding the Heil Hitler - that's the problem. It was just words, until they weren't. At some point, when the war started, it stood for something way beyond a school yard chant. But they had already programmed the kids to love their Hitler - and to say the ritualistic prayer-like chants forced on kids at young ages didn't have any influence, is naive at best and blind at worst.
Adult individuals knew if they were faking it, and that's fine, and many non-JWs took a stand in whatever way they could. (Schindler anyone?) - but those kids who had been indoctrinated, and went on to be soldiers for Germany - go on and just try and make the case that early indoctrination methods of chanting prayers etc. didn't help create Hitler's youth movement.
for you us citizens (and those whose nations have a similar patriotic oath), how do you feel about your children saying the pledge in school if it's customary?.
my daughter is in 3rd grade and part of her school's morning routine includes the pledge.
when we stopped attending meetings a year ago, my wife and i explained to her that we don't agree with the jw "idolatry" classification so, naturally, she started joining her class in the pledge.. fast forward to the present: my wife and i are both non-theists who want to raise ethical, caring, tolerant children, but also children who aren't afraid to stand apart, especially when that stand isn't popular.
Of course there's always the danger that if McCarthy/Fascism infiltrates it's way back in America, SBCs kids might turn him in, like the traitor that he is. ;)
for you us citizens (and those whose nations have a similar patriotic oath), how do you feel about your children saying the pledge in school if it's customary?.
my daughter is in 3rd grade and part of her school's morning routine includes the pledge.
when we stopped attending meetings a year ago, my wife and i explained to her that we don't agree with the jw "idolatry" classification so, naturally, she started joining her class in the pledge.. fast forward to the present: my wife and i are both non-theists who want to raise ethical, caring, tolerant children, but also children who aren't afraid to stand apart, especially when that stand isn't popular.
It's not obvious to me.
It is however very clear that he doesn't want his kids repeating prayer-like chants unless they understand what it means. If they could really understand what it means, why do they have to be obligated to engage in this ritual on a daily basis?
They understand what a birthday is. They understand what cake is. They understand what turkeys are and probably have a pretty good understanding of what thanksgiving means currently.
What does the pledge mean? Just words right? no big deal? Then why say them at all? What exactly is the educational purpose of chanting to the symbol of the invisible borders that distinguish the country of one's birth from another's? Could my dual citizen kids say another pledge to their other county? Would that teach them something too?
SBC isn't threatening anyone's patriotism here. Hell, he might even say the pledge himself - he hasn't said he wouldn't.
If some people here think JWs are the only place where indoctrination methods are employed, they haven't quite exited the cult mindset - imho. Knowing what indoctrination methods look like should make any parent aware of any religion or government that tries to force them upon your children.
BTW - James Woods - this is not a slight at you. I dig almost all of your posts and am open to a lot of your idealogy.
djeggnog invited me to start a new thread about the blood doctrine, which i am happy to do here.
his objection was my statement,.
"i've seen the blood video, a deceiving mix of scripture, fearmongering and pseudoscience, with plenty of lab coats in view.
1800s, 1900s, 2000s - by my math, as taught by the Watchtower - that is three different centuries. ;)
the may 2011 km has an article on page 2 entitled, "could you share in the ministry on sundays?
1. it was the sabbath, a day when most jews in philippi rested.
paul and his companions were visiting the city during one of their missionary tours.
Every once in a while the elders try to promote Sunday service in our hall.
They assign a MS to get up and announce there will be meeting for service after the Watchtower and to meet in the library.
It's so funny as all of us elders watched him in the back by himself - even his wife and kids would get a ride home.
He'd tell us he had some calls to make ... but we knew the only visit he was making was at the donut shop.
Then it stops after two weeks. Until the circuit overseer shows up. Then all the elders go out on sunday all of the sudden.
The elders in my hall like to go out 9 to 5, M - F, as they are retired or have night jobs. They still complain at all the people never at home.
The funny thing is, if they went out on Sunday, they probably would get the most people at home.
Here's a video of our watchtower conductor trying to get people to go in service after the meeting on Sunday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxPVyieptwA
SO - Who wants to go in service on Sunday? Anyone? Anyone?
djeggnog invited me to start a new thread about the blood doctrine, which i am happy to do here.
his objection was my statement,.
"i've seen the blood video, a deceiving mix of scripture, fearmongering and pseudoscience, with plenty of lab coats in view.
Mary - another excellent point I've never thought of. Without even getting into the grammar of it all as TD presents so awesomely, the beauty is the simplicity.
If this really was what God wanted to be the end-all communication of his view on blood, then it is as simple as you put, and not as complicated as JWs make it - and definitely not as convoluted as even DJ re-interprets the WTs very policy, making it worse than the Watchtower actually does.
Bible allows for the equal interpretation of two things: 1) Blood is sacred to God; 2) Life is sacred to God.
If blood is used for it's intended purpose, to preserve life which is sacred - then God would actually look upon this as loving, as Chirstian. Which is why even the early Watchtower writers (pre 1944) commended those who donated blood. It took a crazy wacko health freak to twist scriptures to condemn it - and a power hungry control freak to enforce it. The rest is history. Except now it's okay to take parts of donated human blood, even cow blood, to save life - but not other parts.
WT says 'It's okay for a mother to give her white blood cells while breast feeding, but not if her child is sick and needs them to fight off a disease. The child should die instead, even though that same child fed on those same white blood cells'
WT says 'It's God's design that identical twins transfuse blood to one another in the womb - so that's ok. But those same twins, once out of the womb, would not be able to transfuse blood to one another in the event of a life threatening illness. God hates that, even though he ok'd it previously in their lives. He says it is not a conscience matter. They will die at armageddon or go straight to gehenna for doing what I had them do earlier. But now, I wouldn't break my own laws on blood - so when certain fractions pass through the placenta - that is to tell you that fractions are a conscience matter.'
Yep - the WT's god is perfectly logical. As outlaw says - the WT has been telling Jehovah what to do well into 3 centuries now - but he can never seem to get it right.
The Watchtower would have disfellowshipped Jehovah long ago for his continued disobedience to their blood policy.
it's only fair that the psychology of apostates be assessed as they're intent on analyzing the psychology of jehovah's witnesses.
http://www.freeminds.org/psychology/mind-control/mind-control-or-brainwashing.html .
understanding mind control among jehovah's witnesses.
Alice hates trolls. But Alice is WINNING. WINNING. She's a warlock. She drinks tiger blood.
really though - here's what every single person in the world thinks of Alice, including every single JW, but especially me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JODwetfioWA&feature=feedrec_grec_index
it's only fair that the psychology of apostates be assessed as they're intent on analyzing the psychology of jehovah's witnesses.
http://www.freeminds.org/psychology/mind-control/mind-control-or-brainwashing.html .
understanding mind control among jehovah's witnesses.
Alice / Spade has some issues - be nice people.
of all of jehovahs witnesses peculiar ideology that attracts the most attention is their controversial and inconsistent prohibition of transfusions of a red biological fluidblooddonated by caring people to help save lives.. in light of the fact that patients in need of blood seldom require all of the components of whole blood, modern medical treatment calls for only that portion needed for a particular condition or disease, and this is referred to as blood component therapy.
[1] the following information is centered on this therapy that is being used to save jehovahs witnesses lives.. by barbara anderson.
"echr point number 136, 139http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?action=html&documentid=869647&portal=hbkm&source=externalbydocnumber&table=f69a27fd8fb86142bf01c1166dea398649 -- http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/pmc479295/.
What I understand Randy and Barbara to be saying is that the Watchtower has begun, particularly in the last decade, a slow & calculated gradual change in the blood doctrine. The linguistic and legal games that Watchtower plays with the blood doctrine is very much like the book 1984 and the re-writing of history. Right now they often claim that "fractions" have been acceptable for many decades, when that clearly isn't the case. But they are very deceiving and here's where it gets interesting.
If you take the OM/OD books. Look at the baptismal questions in the original one regarding blood. Then look at the Baptismal questions in the new one. The new one is much more vague. They no longer ask the question about "what would you do if a doctor told you that your family member would die without blood?". If you became a JW before 2005/2006 you had to answer 'you would let someone die', otherwise they wouldn't let you get baptized. Now that question is not even asked to baptismal candidates.
So the doctrine will change, as it already has, right before our eyes (those of us in the know). But to most JWs, they won't even realize it. That's how powerful and sneaky this religion is over people.
Take autologous transfusions. Those are now a conscience matter. The 2002 ( I think - might be different but it's close to that year) QFR basically changed this policy. You can take your own blood and store for 'specific medical procedures'? how long? 'it is up to the individual's conscience. What defines a specific medical procedure. Again - that's up to the individual? The only thing they'd probably poo-poo is storing your own blood, just for the sake of it, with no pending medical procedures.
How many JWs know this? Or more importantly, how many JWs realize how big of a deal this change in policy is? Very few. I had to correct a CO on the matter not even a year ago. He still had a hard time admitting I was right - but ultimately conceded.
So again, Randy and Barbara are right. It will change - but no JW will notice. Thus they won't sue and even if they didn't it wouldn't get far. They won't see it as a big deal either and leave in droves. Oh sure - some will wake up. But the only sad thing about it all really, is that many won't know. More unnecessary deaths.
